Testimony of Jai Roza (Interviewer Amelia Lauritano) @ GYC Portland OR - 2023

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Transcript

Jai: Judas and Peter.

Jai: Yes. Both commit the same type of sin. Yes. One comes back for repentance. Yes. Yes. The other gives up on life. Exactly. I was in the camp that was about to give up on life. Because I'm thinking, I don't want to exist. 

Callum: You're listening to Eden's Conflict, a podcast dedicated to helping you leverage the words of Scripture and unlock the powers of the Bible so that you might experience a more full and complete walk with God.

Nikki: Hey friends, Nikki here, from the New Eden's Conflict Creative Team. Before we get into today's episode, we felt it was important to prefix a few things about this recording. First, the setting. This interview took place during the December 2023 GYC convention in Portland, Oregon. So any strange noises that may occasionally come through are simply because of the crowds of people passing by.

Nikki: And second is the timing. This was a very impromptu event, and the only recording equipment that we had in the moment was a small lapel mic. Also, Jai had been talking quite a bit at our booth in the previous days. So, his voice was well on its way out before being asked by Mrs. Amelia to record his testimony after church that Sabbath morning.

Nikki: This leads to our third and probably most incredible part about this event. You see, this is the longest up to date recording that Jai has ever given of his life experience anywhere. The reason this is so impressive is because at previous recording attempts, the files are often lost, corrupted, or flat out blank after the recording sessions.

Nikki: Why God would allow that to happen until now? May remain a mystery, but with how often this would happen, Jai had stopped attempting to record himself altogether, stating that he would rather wait for God to decide when his testimony should be recorded and shared. So when this chance encounter came to us at this event, we gave it up to God and hit record.

Nikki: Lastly, despite our best efforts to clean up the audio, some parts of the interview were just too distorted to keep and have been removed altogether. We also decided to dub over other sections that were hard to understand due to background noise. However, we tried to keep this to a minimum so as not to lose the energy and emotion of the moment.

Nikki: With that said, here is the results of that interview. Whatever happens from sharing this story on today's episode, may to God be the glory forever and ever. Amen. 

Amelia: Hi friends. So my name is Amelia and I had the pleasure to meet this young man at GYC during breakfast. It was just a divine appointment. I was sitting in a different table and then a friend of mine, while my friends, who were sitting with me. They left so I was by myself at my table. So another friend who was sitting at a different table, she invited me to join her.

Amelia: This is how I end up sitting at Jai's table. And I heard this first part of his testimony and I was just amazed. I was like, wow, this is powerful. I can't believe, it's I was so convicted that, I needed to talk with him at the end of his testimony and ask him to share it again and to record it. 

Amelia (Dub): So here we are, and before starting, we're going to have a small word of prayer. So let's pray heavenly father. We thank you so much for this beautiful time that we are having here at GYC. We thank you so much, Lord, for raising this ministry and for allowing young people to come here, to hear these beautiful messages, to be empowered.

Amelia (Dub): To be inspired and to finish the work. Lord, we ask you to please be with us. We invite your Holy Spirit to be among us during this time. And may Jesus be lifted up and that we would be hid behind the cross. Be with my friends who are sharing this testimony and may this testimony touch many hearts and souls.

Amelia (Dub): And that they may be convinced that you are a wonderful God. And you love us and want to save us. We thank you so much in Jesus name. Amen. Okay, tell us a little bit about your background, and where you were born, how you were raised, and then you can go into your testimony.

Jai: Sure. I was born and raised in the Seventh day Adventist Church. My family was first generation Adventists.

Jai: My, my grandmother had, and grandfather had accepted the faith. And so my parents both from separate families were both kind of first generation Adventists. So I guess you could say I'm a second generation Adventist in that aspect. Now, I grew up in the Loma Linda community. Had a very conservative upbringing.

Jai: Adventurers and pathfinders. Homeschool all the way up through high school. The whole nine yards by 14, I was an ordained deacon at my church. We're very much a part of ministry, very much part of actively serving and being members of the church.

Jai: That is if you were to see us on outside church and even out in public, my family would be complimented by strangers. They would come up and they don't people tell my mom, Oh, you have such well behaved boys. So it's so when you look at ideal External view of faith and Adventist Christians.

Jai: It's like people who look at our family would have been like that. That's a good family. They are God fearing people. And that was my understanding , but a key element that came into play was it was a very external projection It was at home a very different story, we hit my parents would argue quite a bit over different things, usually about money, like a lot of families who struggle do.

Jai: So that kind of dual sided personality was something that we just assumed the role of, the house was a mess until we knew somebody was coming over and then it was the cleanest house you'd ever seen. And it was almost like this mental family mentality of how to live two lives of how we were being raised.

Jai: That it's just, you put on , a front. And we don't know that it's a front. This is just how we live. We put on this presentation of what we're supposed to be in this setting. And then when others aren't around, we are our natural selves.

Amelia (Dub): So you were involved in the church, and you were raised in an Adventist home, and knowing the Bible verses, and being active in the church in different things. What happened? When did your life take a turn? 

Jai: Part of my experience while being active in the church and doing a lot of stuff, 

Jai: and then also having this dual separation of life at home. Even another layer behind that was my own experience from my family. So I had a dual life apart from my family that my family didn't know about. And I'd say it all began when I was molested at eight years old. There was, it happened a few times.

Jai: It was another boy, roughly my age and that experience suddenly, I remember very vividly the very next day, not only just feeling different, but having a different perspective of the world around me, all of a sudden the world seemed much bigger and there was things that I didn't know were out there, I didn't understand, and there's this mixed emotion of.

Jai: Feeling good, but also feeling guilty. And so I kept that from my family. And that inevitably started to grow as this secret does. Anytime you bury something away. Yes. You're inevitably just putting it away for later. And the more that, the older I got, the more ashamed I felt about it. The Be more I thought that it's this is wrong.

Jai: I shouldn't have anything to do with it But what it did is it exposed me to sexuality that I began to pursue and obviously that led into Pornography addiction and all these things and I'm hiding all of this from my family. So even the dual personality we have from as a family to the church and now from my family and me, they don't know the things that I'm struggling with at home.

Jai: It became very natural for me to put on a front and put on a face and say that it's like, Oh, yeah, I'm this person in front of you here, but at home, I'm really something else. So that eventually evolved where as I got older, I began to question my faith and I began to look for people who had A more substantial connection to their faith because I grew up in a home when I started asking questions about why we did certain things.

Jai: Why do we keep the Sabbath? Why do we, not eat these things? Why do, why can't I watch cartoons on, on, on Saturday or hang out with my friends late at night or whatever? It's Because we're Adventists became the rule of law. We don't do this because we're Adventists. We do this because we're Adventists.

Jai: We go here because we're Adventists. We don't go there because we're Adventists. And it's but that's not an answer. Yeah. That's a parent trying to push off a question they don't know the answer to. It, what it really did is it only stirred up more curiosity in me to say okay, but I want real answers.

Jai: And so when I went looking, I started Getting interested in other people who had at least a semblance of discipline or structure for themselves that there's this is what I do because I choose to do it. That led me into martial arts. Okay. So martial arts was the gateway that started really taking me from.

Jai: My understanding of faith in Christianity to an even wider world of faith outside of Christianity. Faith in the supernatural, faith in, in energies and powers and the ability to do and say and see things that others can't see. But yeah, it was so it began the doubt and fear I was harboring in my heart as a child just began to manifest and grow until I began to question and doubt everything that I was being told to believe.

Jai: And so that's why I started looking for real faith outside of it. 

Amelia: I see. So you feel like not having answer from your family about your questioning led you to find answers somewhere else. Yeah. Okay. So maybe you can come back at the end. What advice would you give to teenagers or to families living to do your life?

Amelia: Do you want to come back at the end or do you want to 

Amelia: try and we can come back to it at the end. I think it would tie in more. Okay. 

Jai: So I guess the result of that, the result of asking those questions and like seeking other faith is that when you're looking for something if you're not looking for it in the word of God, Satan is going to find a substitute that will seem to fit what you're looking for.

Jai: Yes. So it's and I love using analogies, right? Christ used analogies all the time. He used shepherds. He used fishermen. He used things that people knew. Yes. Yes. Yes. Let's use stuff we know you're on Amazon, right? Yeah. You're like, Hey, I need this thing that does this and you're scrolling through and there's hundreds of listings all claiming to do that.

Jai: You're like, Oh this is the thing I'm looking for, but it's expensive. Oh, but this looks like it do the same thing and it's cheaper. Okay. That I think is the option I'm going to go with. And then a week later you get, you're there, you're using it and you're like, this doesn't do what I want.

Jai: So that was basically me and my experience with spirituality is I, at first it was this, Ooh, interesting, different nobody at church seems to talk about this. Nobody knows this. And the irony is that it was someone at church who got me interested in martial arts who took me on as their apprentice that would teach me and show me these things.

Jai: And they used it as a very like. Exercise based routine and stuff. But what I found in the study was they also introduced me to meditation. And I found that I had a knack for getting into a meditative trance fairly quickly. And so as I began to explore that, I began to get interactions with things that you can only define as one of two ways.

Jai: One is supernatural in things that we're beginning to reach out to me and have this ongoing conversation with or schizophrenic. This child is simply over hyped imagination and thinks he's having a conversation with an invisible being. Now, depending on where you fall in your own level of faith and confidence in what the Bible says and the war of good and evil, you're going to say that and be like, oh yeah, that's definitely not God or that is God, depending on how you look at it.

Jai: There's a supernatural being that's connecting with this person. Or you're going to look at it as that's just a chemical imbalance in their mind. Either way, I didn't know what it was, and I was again, scared and nervous. The continuous fear of rejection, fear of. What if fear of what others will think of me if I tell them what's going on.

Jai: And so I keep again just piling down the fear of Not knowing but also a pursuing of that new thing looking for something to satiate this desire in my heart to know what is real what is true. 

Amelia: I see So this martial arts that you started, was it like a school or was it just like private lessons?

Jai: It was like private lessons. Okay. Yeah, it was private lessons and but a big part about it in the martial arts was you, we started every session with meditation. Okay. You learned how to clear your mind and focus on the world around you. You are just a floating, glowing orb in the black abyss of space and that is all there is.

Jai: Nothing else matters and here are some words and routines. As I got older and I began to go to college, it's like there were people at college who were like, yeah, that's good rudimentary stuff, but let me tell you how to get to the deeper levels. Let me tell you how to get to the true powers of it.

Jai: And so it was a combination of events, partially from people who were just trying to share what they knew and others who were trying to intentionally like. Share things to supposedly give me real power. And then also these entities that I'm now beginning to have regular dialogue and conversation with that are telling me how to open myself up to them even further.

Jai: And we talked about this a little bit earlier the difference between energy and power, and it's a hard concept for people to wrap their minds around at times. Because to say that it's like you feel energetic, you can get that from eating food, you can get that from getting a good nap or a nice walk.

Jai: Feel good, like energized. But to feel power. It's this presence of body that you, most people don't know how to relate to. The closest thing I can describe it to, as I would find out later in life, is, it's that moment of sensation where you feel a drug kicking in. That, that immediate warm kind of glow that's Slowly take it over and I think this is why a lot of people turn to drugs because it's like it's that's in Ooh, I can do anything but eventually the drug wears off.

Jai: Yes, but in the spiritual sense spiritual power That doesn't wear off the same way And so those who are seeking power and look at that they say give me more of that sense of self control but also of Power and what you don't realize is the irony of it is that it is To get to that level of power, you must first turn off.

Jai: Your mind's ability to choose. You get to that state of power through, through hypnosis techniques. And so by surrendering yourself, you get to a state of feeling in control. It's literally an underhanded, like deal where it's yeah, I'm giving you this reality is you're getting this. That's what, what led me losing my will more and more.

Jai: And I don't know how deep we want to go into that because I've got stories of times where they would take over and I had no control like fast forward. I think it was roughly from. From high school to college, all right? Towards the end of college, I remember one time, it's I had stopped doing drugs, I had stopped doing all this stuff, and then this one night, we go out with friends and everybody, they've got some weed, we're smoking, and then they're, we're going to the clubs, and we're hitting all these clubs up, and I remember at one point Having now having had started building my faith up to this point and I was trying to leave these things behind But I also didn't think they were that bad I remember dancing in the club and having that moment that sensation of the drug kicking in and it's just like that Ooh euphoria like the power.

Jai: I love that sensation and in that moment There was a voice that said I got you the deepest most creepy Like cringy grinding of nails on a chalkboard voice that only I could hear and it began to laugh And as it began to laugh I could feel its laughter as if it was hitting me And as it began to laugh, I began to laugh.

Jai: And before I knew it, the voice was coming out of my mouth. And I'm on this dance floor laughing and dancing, but it's not my voice. And it's no longer me that's dancing. And I remember being in that moment. Sobbing and crying while laughing and dancing on the floor because I could feel the tears rolling down my eye of I'm not in control.

Jai: This is not me. 

Amelia: It was like you were a double person, like you're you crying and realizing that you lose control of yourself and other entities moving through your body and laughing and having fun. 

Jai: It's the closest thing is the demoniacs. Yes. They run to Christ because they need the help. But the moment they open their mouths, it's not them speaking. Yes. They cried out for help, but they couldn't even ask. All they could do was scream. And it wasn't even their scream. And when Christ starts talking, it's not even them responding, but he saw the desire for help. And like later that night, it was like after the drugs were off and I find myself sitting on some street curb somewhere, I'm like, what am I doing here?

Jai: Yeah. I literally thought this was behind me. I thought this life and it was a, it became a back and forth struggle and we're getting a little ahead but that kind of experience is, and there's so many of those. I've. If you're looking at a history of failures of somebody who has an understanding of what Christianity believes and Adventism and then chooses to go into Satan's camp anyways, my life is full of it.

Jai: And the fact that I'm even here having this conversation shows that God is willing to pull anybody out of anything, no matter how many times you go back to the wallow of your mire. 

Amelia: Yes, that's the purpose of this interview.. 

Jai: and it's all him. That's the beauty of it is the fact that I can sit here today and know that it's not even me in the moment that is coming with this conversation.

Jai: It's it's because I woke up this morning and I said, God, Thank you for the divine appointments of today. Thank you for using me today. Thank you for putting your words in my mouth and not mine. When you have that mentality, now it's no longer me. It's Christ in me, His righteousness in me, His glory in me, and this is the whole plan of salvation, is what He wants to do this for every single individual.

Amelia: Amen, that beautiful, that's so powerful, It's how we end up meeting this morning. 

Jai: That's exactly what it is. You're like, I'm like, yeah, God, let's go. Divine appointment. It's okay. And then he's like, all right, here. 10 minutes. Get in line. Get to breakfast. 

Amelia: And so you were sharing this morning something about how the anime and what you were watching. Yeah. They prepare you or they even open up these words to you. 

Amelia: Yeah.

Jai: Okay. So a lot of people will look at and it's a good question. People say first off in, Christianity, but specifically Adventism, I find we have a very reductionist. I don't know if that's the proper word, but that's what I've been saying.

Jai: A reductionist kind of mindset, which is like, how do I take away things from my life that are hindering my ability to connect with God? And that's good to a degree. The challenge comes, though, in the fact that we reduce so much that we're left in this place of now I don't know what to do.

Jai: And an empty mind is the devil's playground. So what we then do is we try and find substitutes that we say , this is okay for us to engage in, it's not that bad. I know that it's not real. And so for me and my brothers growing up, it's you're not allowed to watch Harry Potter.

Jai: Yeah. But you're allowed to watch anime, which is involving ninjas. Ninjas aren't magical, they're, they're physical fighting and all that. Yeah, at least we're not in the magic realm. We keep clearing that. So in these animes so Naruto is one of them and What's another one?

Jai: Avatar. Yes. These are two easy examples, okay? Avatar the Last Airbender is a big one. The whole premise of it is he's, he is a reincarnated being traveling from body to body. So we're introducing the concepts of spiritualism. Reincarnation. You are an eternal soul. Yes. There's a scene or an episode where he goes back to the temple that he was originally from and everybody's dead.

Jai: And now there's this guru that just lives there literally like a guru who ends up training him on how to access. his past lives for the sake of finding wisdom and guidance and he's got some emotional turmoil that's preventing him from doing it so the episode you say that it's oh the guru see the guru is helping him overcome this emotional trauma that allows him to grow as a character but what is the way in which he grows as a character is that he learns to overcome that emotional trauma and now he's able to Connect with his past self and have a conversation, interaction, and he does that by explaining the process of chakras in the body and how to heal and relieve and recover.

Jai: And one of the things it's like he has to learn to let go, including of the people he loves. So it's like the avatar has to learn to let go of the people he loves because he is an immortal being. He will love somebody else in the next life. It's so he has to learn to let go of the woman he loves.

Jai: And that's where the episode. conflicts and he's Oh, I can't let her go. And he goes and tries to save her blah, blah, blah. But in that whole episode, it's literally giving us a step by step breakdown. How to clear your mind, what the chakras are, how to open your energies and your gates.

Jai: And Naruto, they do a similar thing. They have chakras and energies and they're opening up the gates. And as the martial arts ninjas that they are, learn to open. Deeper and deeper gates they get more and more powerful and they're able to do more abilities So as a child and as I'm now experimenting with meditation, and I'm beginning to have conversations with something I'm watching these shows and then I'm going back to my teachers and I'm saying like so what can you tell me more about this?

Jai: Concept like how could can something like that happen? And you know you hear some of these when you really get in the martial arts world You hear of people doing some crazy stuff that you're just like That's not natural to be able to do that. And so that sparks more intrigue of what could I do if I really dove into the soul?

Jai: I begin to practice what I'm seeing. And this is why I say most people would look at that and say, see, that's the reason why. Cut TV shows out, cut these things out, cut that out. Don't watch anything. Satan doesn't care what you cut out. Satan does not care what you cut out because at the end of the day, he's got a thousand other ways that he's going to present the same thing to you in another format and you're not ready to defend against this.

Jai: For me it, like, where I am at now, I Care less about people cutting everything out and care more about teaching them how to have Intentionality in their pursuit of God. Yes, because if you can be intentional about wanting God You don't need to cut stuff out. You just no longer desire it Yeah, because it's a say I'm cutting it out It means I'm forcing it out versus I just don't want it anymore, makes it sound like it was never a part of me.

Jai: So one is attaching myself mentally as separating of self. The other is redefining what self is and understanding that this thing that is trying to leech itself onto me is not a part of me to begin with. And so that's the difference that I look at and saying it's like because when you think about It's like we're going to eternity and in eternity.

Jai: The only reason there's no sin is because we choose not to yes It's not because sin isn't an option It's because everybody who is there has decided for eternity. They will never sin again They want God more than anything else that any sin could ever offer So if we don't learn while we're here to have a mentality that says, I want God more than everything else that is around me can offer.

 It doesn't matter when it tries to come at me, when my friends, I'm at a friend's house and they're like, Hey, we're going to watch this movie. And I was like this wasn't the movie I wanted to watch. It becomes more about the intentionality of, you know what, God, I want to be in your presence.

Jai: And when I'm around something that takes away from your presence, I'm just not going to want it. 

Amelia: Yes. Because you're in love with God. 

Jai: Exactly. So that's why the shows and things it's yeah, my parents tried again, "conservative" Adventists trying to stop things where you're not allowed to watch that, you're not allowed to do this.

Jai: But you're just creating an interest and hunger into other things and Satan will find a way to fill that void.

Amelia: Yeah. Okay. And so from you having access to more power, more, digging and trying to find more answer and more. Energy. So then what happened, how your life took a really bad turn.

Amelia: What happened next? Because you were feeling like you had more power and you were feeling more confident and there were things that you were able to do. Do you have an example about things you were able to do with this new power that you had? 

Jai: I'll give you some examples. I don't like talking about the things that I used to do as much because again, I don't want to spark curiosity in others.

Jai: If you're able to do that, what else could you do? So one example I was, I really got into Tai Chi. Energy manipulation, moving the energy in your body. One of the examples would be, I was , in college, I was maybe 130 pounds. I was not a heavy guy. But in, in Tai Chi, I learned how to move the energy in my body.

Jai: And so they have this thing where you would move the energy in your body and you would shoot it out from your body and be able to latch on to stuff. And so I would sit or stand in like a horse stance is what they call it, wide legged and you're like, almost like you're riding a horse. So I'd stand there, and I would be able to push the energy out of my body into the earth, and you're holding onto the earth.

Jai: And then I'd have two guys try and pick me up. Big guys. One guy, one arm, one guy, the other arm. And they couldn't lift me off the ground. Two guys who, if I wasn't doing that, they would easily, like one guy would easily lift me up. No problem. But I'd have two guys, like one of, like they grabbed this leg, another one grabbed this leg, and they could not move my legs off the ground.

Jai: And it's so to say that it's like , physical manifestations of power isn't real. They happen. They happen to those who have more belief in them. The more you believe and that was the thing. I think when the Bible talks about the faith of a child, the reason it uses that analogy is because a child's faith.

Jai: Is so believing that the level of belief and I didn't understand this until later, Satan's power over an individual is dependent on the level of belief that we have of his power over us. So the more we willingly believe in him, the more authority he has, we're giving him the means in which to, to have this kind of ability over us.

Jai: And, in my case, it was thinking I'm being given power in return. The reality is I was also very angry. You ask any of my siblings at that time. I was a very like high school into college. I was just a very rebellious child. I dropped out of high school being homeschooled even. I dropped out.

Jai: I just quit doing school and didn't care. I did go to college, but it was, I didn't finish that. I didn't finish college until much later. I was struggling with pornography all the time. And again, my family didn't know. And around the age of 22, I'd say when all of this is really unfolding is when my parents decided to divorce.

Jai: And so their divorce was the straw that broke the camel's back. Wow. Because it was the realization that We don't do this, we're Adventists. We don't divorce, we're Adventists. You just divorced. Even before that, you guys were separated. If you're wrong about that, what else are you wrong about?

Jai: And so it really messed with my mind on understanding what real faith was. And again, I'm like, I'm dabbling and I'm playing and I'm trying to figure out all the stuff. Now rewind just a little bit towards the end of high school before I went to college. I had this moment, this kind of realization.

Jai: And this is what I mean where it's like God brings you out of stuff without you even realizing what's going on. And so leaving high school, I had gotten to a point where it's like I've got roughly half a dozen to a dozen spirits that I can commune with. Some people might call them familiars, these entities that are willing to give you knowledge and power and insight and stuff and.

Jai: You think you're getting the benefit, but you're also getting easier to manipulate more and more, I'm a hair trigger away from an argument for anything. And the only time I'm at peace is when I'm meditating or looking at pornography. So it's and that's a whole nother thing of itself where people don't realize.

Amelia (Dub): It's incredible how Satan, he tries to keep you where you are in bondage by giving you peace only if you go back and sin.

Jai: Yeah. Wow. You only get your relief if you do what we say. Yes. Yeah. And there's that still that Christian side of it where I'm like you shouldn't be looking at pornography.

Jai: So there's this struggle where I'm like nobody knows what's really going on here. So now it's just burying more guilt down in that hole of. Darkness of my life. 

Amelia: That's the lie. It makes you feel like you have freedom but the end you don't have freedom at all 

Jai: Yeah, and so when my parents divorced that was what snapped everything out and everything began to spew out and part of what came out of me telling my family everything I had been struggling with was Just at the end of high school I found a darkness in the spiritual world that was so disgusting and so disturbing to me when spirit of prophecy says that it's like God shields us from the world around us from the spiritual entities and things that we are, we don't see.

Jai: It's for a reason. And it's because when I found this entity. I basically said I'd rather die than live in an existence where this thing exists. If that is real, I don't want to live. And as I'm planning my suicide, I'm like, do I leave a note? Now, I'm barely even educated. Yes, I was homeschooled, but dyslexic, ADHD.

Jai: Nobody really knew back in the 90s how to raise a child like that, much less early 2000s. They were just starting to get Some ideas of how to handle, but no one in homeschool knew what they were doing on that. Everything, just ball dropped all around. We tried charter schools, we tried private, none of it worked.

Jai: It was, yeah, so I dropped out. And so I'm like, I feel like a loser. I'm an idiot. I can barely read. I, I don't know where I'm going in life. I'm struggling with addiction, pornography. It's I've got this big massive secret from my childhood that nobody knows about. I'm depressed all the time, like super, super depressed, like bad and I'm communing with spirits that are taking control of me more and more.

Jai: And I don't want to live. I'd rather die than live in this reality. And in my mind. I knew where I would end up. I had my Adventist upbringing. I knew that I was not going to the resurrection. I was going to the judgment. I was skipping that and going straight to the end. But in my mind, I was like, but then I only have to live for a little bit.

Jai: And then I don't exist at all. The idea of not existing, of not dealing with all of these things that had their hold on me, was so appealing that I was like, I want to end my life. I want freedom from existence and it's not even peace, but it's not existence. Yeah. So there's no suffering. So at least I'm not thinking I'm going to hell.

Jai: I'm like, no, I'm a burn for a minute, but it's over when it's done. 

Amelia: That's so sad. It's how people, they end up committing suicide because they don't find any hope, any way out. Wow. So what, what happened? 

Jai: Okay. So this is the question. It's so how do you come out of that mentality?

Amelia: Yeah, You were at the end. They were really like, okay, I'm done with life. I'm done with everything. 

Jai: And I have a true understanding of what's going to happen to me afterwards. And we know and a lot of people, a lot of Christians will be like you don't want to burn in hell.

Jai: And even the Adventist is you don't want to go through the second judgment. I'm like, no, I do. I want out. I don't want to try and live. To maybe make it to an eternity where I don't know if it's going to be any better. I can't comprehend goodness when I live in a world of literal spiritual darkness. And it's not just a metaphor, it's a literal darkness that I could see around me. 

Amelia: Yeah, it is why, I think it's so important for us to have people know that when God gives hope And gives forgiveness. There's really a redemption that takes place. And the person can have access to eternal life.

Amelia: Because it's forgiven. Yeah. Just watch the person from all the sins that he's committed. And people, they don't know. This is why Judah, he committed suicide because he thought that it was over. He didn't have any hope. 

Jai: Judas and Peter. Yes. Both commit the same type of sin. Yes. One comes back for repentance. Yes. Yes. The other gives up on life. Exactly. I was in the camp that was about to give up on life. Because I'm thinking I don't want to exist. And so the night I'm planning this, it's probably about 1230 at night, and I get a phone call.

Jai: It's from a friend in Hawaii and talked to them in years. We had been childhood friends. They had moved away, but, and we had reconnected Instagram or not even Instagram. Facebook. Yeah. It was a Facebook item in my space. My space was a thing. If you don't know what my space is, then it lets you know how the age range you're talking to my space was, I think the way we reconnected and cause it's like, Oh, let's see if these people are on here and you find them.

Jai: And we had reconnected they had my phone number and so they call me and it's about 12 30 at night and They're like, what are you doing right now? I don't remember what else look really the conversation But it was the first words that they said what are you doing right now? 

Amelia: That was God sending them, to check on you. ,, 

Jai: Yeah, the next words that came out of their mouth where I just got out of a Bible study I felt like I had to call you and I told them I was being honest. I'm like there's nothing you're going to be able to do. I'm planning my suicide. Wow. I'm thinking this is going to be the last person I talk to. Bye. Letting you know, you can tell everybody else why I'm not here. Wow. Now, the selfishness of me, you think, can you imagine how messed up you would feel as a young person to be like, I was the last person they talked to. And then they took their life. Like I would have messed up that person if they found out later that I was dead. And it's and they were the last line of defense. Imagine if you're the last one you just called and you find out it's.

Jai: The difference between that person living and dying is whether or not you convince them over the phone. Yes, wow. Looking at that, I'm like, God's grace moves in ways we can't imagine. And for this person. And if I, if, I don't know where they are today in their faith. I don't know where they stand in any of that.

Jai: But I know that in that moment. They were willing to be used by God. They were willing to listen to that conviction that said call this person right now. It's midnight, it's past midnight over there. Why am I going to call them? There could be all the reasons why I would call and check on them in the morning.

Jai: And find out that they're not there in the morning. And I don't remember, I honestly don't remember the whole conversation of what happened. I do remember that they prayed with me. I do remember that they began to remind me of the promises of scripture. And in the moments as they're speaking, all right, so now picture this, it's hard to describe the spiritual world compared to the tangible physical world.

Jai: The best way I can describe it is almost like a coating or a layer over stuff. And so everything around me is pitch black. I'm in this darkness that has consumed my home, consumed my world. Everything is black. And all of a sudden, imagine you're in a pitch black room and all of a sudden somebody shines a flashlight across your eyes.

Jai: Now, your eyes don't adjust. You don't see what it was, you don't know where it came from. In that moment, something was different than what, just what everything else is around you. And so that light was enough, just enough in my mind to be like, I don't know what that was, but this person has it.

Jai: And I don't know where it is. But I want to see where it came from. Wow. Something, and I knew in my head something, out in the universe, because I'm very much New Age ideals, mentalities, an entity in the universe as a whole reached down and tried to touch me before I left it. So in my mind, I was like, I need to go find out what that power is, because that was that had become my means for deciding whether or not somebody had truth or not.

Jai: I would look at them and say, do they have a light on them, a glow? And often, of course, when you're using that as your grading standard, Satan starts to present those who have "lights". It's to give you "light" and give you more of their power. So you become more enlightened. Yeah, exactly. The enlightening movement.

Jai: But you're still lost in darkness. 

Amelia: So this light appeared to you while he was praying for you. 

Jai: Yeah, as they're talking to me on the phone. It was like, it was just like, took over the room just for a second. I couldn't even, you couldn't even quantify it if you had a timer.

Amelia: You know the power of prayer and the power of being used by God, being willing to be used by God. 

Jai: Yeah. It's amazing. From a child. Essentially, because both in high school, so we're children. So That moment when I got off the phone, I agreed with them. I was like, look, okay, for your sake, I won't kill myself. I will continue to look for something. And in my mind, the back of my mind, I was thinking. There's something else out there and I don't know what it is, but I need to find it. I can always choose to take my life later. I get it. It wasn't off the table. I'm like, yeah, this is still an option. But now there's this other option.

Jai: And if I do this, I can't go look at that. 

Amelia: Yes 

Jai: It was curiosity just enough to shift my mind off of. Option A suicide to option B, whatever this is and, I wish I could say that from that moment it was like, yes. And then God sent someone to my door and they presented a book and there was this literature that I started to understand and I became baptized, naw naw naw.

Jai: That began the next 14 years of pursuing God and running back to the devil and pursuing God and running back to the devil and pursuing God. Because I was like, God, I don't get the power from you that I do from communion with my spirits. And so it's it began this wrestling back and forth over my life.

Jai: And this is all what starts to come out because I've kept all of this buried away. This all comes out at my parents divorce and now in family counseling. Being molested as a child. Struggling with addiction and pornography. Depression and huge episodes of just What you could call schizophrenia, suicidal thoughts and tendencies like all of these things begin to come out and my family doesn't know how to respond.

Jai: So they just reject it. And it's at that point that I'm like, okay, that's fine. Look, I'm an adult now. I can live how I want. I don't need whatever you guys have. Now, mind you, I don't know that I'm pursuing God yet. I'm just pursuing some power out there, but from that night for the next, I'd say a year from the night I had planned my suicide, I come away from that conversation and my Bible begins to have that, have a spiritual glow to it that I didn't see before.

Jai: And I'd asked other people about it, people who were practicing, energy, seeing energy, manipulating energy. I'm like, does this book have a glow to you? Not telling if it's a Bible or anything. We're like, does this? Is there anything resonating off this book for you? No, I don't see anything.

Jai: But to me, it became in the moments where the spirits really wanted to mess with me. I learned first to just hold it close to me. And I would literally fall asleep with my Bible in my arms, still struggling. So I didn't like reading, still struggling with dyslexia. I still do today. So I would fall asleep for a while, just holding my Bible.

Jai: And because the light kept them away, even physically to having it close to me and what it was, it's not that the book itself is magic. Don't take it the wrong way. There's no power in the physical texts, but the faith that was being established through what I understood as faith, spiritual manipulation and seeing energy because I'm applying my level of faith into that.

Jai: Source. God is protecting me so he's using the steps, the things that I was doing in my misguided spiritualism to guide me back to him. And a lot of people might look at that and say, Oh, see, you're trying to teach spiritualism. Like you need to start seeing energy. No. I'm not saying any of that. I'm saying that God works with you where you are to bring you to where he is.

Jai: And he did this over and over again, because again, I hadn't learned the lesson of, how do I put it? Hardening my heart to sin. I was still trying to do a reductionist kind of mentality. I just won't do that anymore. And then Satan had another way. I'm not going to try and see spirits anymore.

Jai: And he brings in alcohol. I'm not going to see, use alcohol. He brings in marijuana. I'm not going to have marijuana. He brings in relationships. It's like He is always going to find something to which you are giving yourself over to until you decide what I want is Christ more than anything else. 

Amelia: It's the parable of the house that was cleaned. Oh yes, yes, And then, because it was cleaned, it was empty. So more demons, they went in. So we need to have our hearts was life, feed me something. Otherwise they're gonna 

Jai: take the place. Yeah, exactly, you can't empty the house and expect it to stay spotless.

Jai: Yes. If Christ is not invited to fill that presence. Exactly, yes. And one of the ironies that we have is God again, uses the same mentality though, to bring me back when I started pursuing relationships with others versus a relationship with him.

Jai: He led me into a relationship where it was not ordained. If you look at it from, how we were living, we're living together. We're doing. Things it's shouldn't be doing before marriage. But He used it as a means to inspire me that said, hey look If I want a real relationship with somebody we should probably have God in our lives We were both ex adventists and we were both like we should probably go to church and apply these things for ourselves Yes, because we were serious about each other and in the process of getting to know God better It became clear that we weren't right for each other But we thought we did because we had a physical connection.

 So much of what we do and don't do is based on the fear of how things will turn out rather than looking for direction from a source that is willing to give us peace and guidance when we make him the only desire of our hearts. So I could go on with a lot of stories that.

Jai: Happened between my experience in college and going abroad and studying in Spain, taking on a whole party lifestyle. I eventually one day came back and I'm still partying in the world. And I woke up from a One night, this is probably, so I was probably about 24, I wanna say. I wake up hungover from a house party, and it was a Saturday morning and I was like, I'm going to church. Wow. I just walked out my front door, or the front door of the house, walked down the street. And walked into the Loma Linda Chinese church.

Jai: Wow. Hung over. Wow. Nobody knows. I'm, I was all dressed up like. Like I was at a party, now I'm like Try tucking my shirt. Yeah, I'm here for church, I have no idea what they're talking about and I know but what God, this is what I'm saying. God's mercy in how he uses you in a moment to point you in whatever you're doing to come back to him is, it's just incredible to see what he's willing to do when we become willing, Yeah. To listen to him. 

Amelia: He was using all the resources that he could use to reach out to you. 

Jai: Yeah. And pursue you. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. That's amazing love. And he did it multiple times. He did it there. He did it later on here's a quick story.

Jai: Yeah. My, my roommate and I were both heavy pot users. And so this is past we're after college. We're now in the working world and trying to find out where we're going in life. We're going to church but smoking weed all the time. And so somebody gives my roommate , a Walter Vieth, DVD. 

Amelia: He's an amazing speaker. 

Jai: Oh yeah. Like it's beautiful stuff. And two of my favorite speakers at the time, it became Walter. We and Steven Boar. Okay. We had several of their DVDs. 

Amelia: Wonderful. 

Jai: It gets even funnier, but, so we had these DVDs and so we start playing them.

Jai: And then we're like, ooh, wouldn't this be cool to watch this while smoking? Yeah, let's do that. Now, you and I would look at that and say, no, you shouldn't do that because you're not going to retain anything. And we didn't. But it was the willingness to seek God from where we were. That we would smoke, sit down, and watch Walter Vieth.

Jai: And be like, whoa. do you believe it? And I ended up like changing my Bible from watching those videos because I was like, wait, my Bible doesn't have that. My Bible doesn't have, he has his series on the Bible of the new international version versus the older King James and all that.

Jai: So I was like, so my Bible, so I went out and bought a Bible that had the right, texted it. And I'm like, and now we're inviting our neighbors over. We're all smoking and having Bible studies. We're like, okay, we're going to read this book. Let me explain to you what it is. And it's like God works in those who are willing in the midst of whatever you're doing.

Jai: And at this point, it's I think I'm out of the spiritualist world. I still hear the voices, but I think I've been given some control because I would tell them in the name of Christ, like to stay away from me and that would. Postpone them for a time. But I always had this lingering fear.

Jai: Hey, we're here. We're outside your house. You might have cleaned it up, but We're still here. We're just, if you ever want to hang out again, just open the door. So there was always that thing at the back of my mind. And there would be more than one occasion where I would. I would open the door and I would go back to them.

Jai: And I would end up exactly where I was before. Depressed. Suicidal tendency. And it's I'm here because I did this again. And God, why would you let me do this? Freedom of choice. And that's what I'm saying. It's if you're looking for a life where it's like someone who pursued God and you take one step toward God and 10 steps back into the world.

Jai: That was me. That was me more than one occasion. 

Amelia: It's incredible how you know, you can see The difference between the love of God giving you a free will, a free choice, and not forcing you. But because of love, he still wants to save you. And then seeing Satan trying to force you to go back.

Amelia: Because by threatening you, and by harassing you, but not in the nice way , because he has a real interest in you. But just because he wants to destroy you, he wants to manipulate you. Do bad to you, it's good to really share this because some people they may think Oh, no, you know Satan is a nice guy, especially when you watch movies today How do you try to portray evil as being good and good as being bad, and no At the end, it's just the contrary.

Jai: I find the idea of us defining good and bad to be very misguided. 

Jai: Because again, from an external perspective, a couple guys smoking weed and reading the Bible, you and I would look at that and say, you're not getting anything out of it. But the willingness of heart cannot be defined simply by a good or bad action.

Jai: Saul, King Saul, became a vessel for God to test or to prophesy through. He went to Samuel and was moved by the Spirit. And, wow, really good stuff. He's speaking, he's one of the prophets. Is he one of the prophets? How is he prophesying? Whose His life ends with him consulting a witch. So your actions, and for us to define this is a good action and that is a bad action.

Jai: We get so caught up in the actions and we don't look at the intent and because we don't know how to direct our intents we end up reacting to whatever action is in front of us So this becomes now where it's like learning that process for myself Has been kind of my lifelong experience in figuring out From yep, I screwed up again.

Jai: Here I am. All right, do I want to go back to option A or do I still want to keep figuring out what option B is? And I've made that decision so many times at this point that now I find myself that I'm like, I can't choose anything but option B because it's like Christ is the only thing that matters.

Jai: When the Bible says this is eternal life that they may know. Yeah. have you ever done any marathons? Okay, but you know what a marathon is, but anybody who's run a marathon will know the experience of another person who says they've run a marathon. Yes. To know God is to know the difference between the utmost. Terrifying things that can exist and to realize and accept that there is something in the complete opposite. It's this revelation of understanding that God is good. Not he's a good God. He is goodness. He is the essence of what love is.

Jai: When we, when you come to that moment and you see it in people, you see it when a child learns how to do something. You're like, they're trying to do something, but they don't know what they're doing. But the moment that they figure out how to do a task, you see that. Oh, that they know when you have that experience with God, where, you know, God is, you don't want anything else. And that was what I struggled with understanding because I would see people giving their testimonies. I'd see people talking about. The goodness of God. I'd hear these passionate preachers and I all of these things and an audio verse was created at what now is my church and was around at the time. It was like there's all of this stuff going on.

Jai: There's all of this goodness around. We often use this very fluffy kind of language. Embrace Christ. Accept him into your life. Read your Bible. Study every day. These are all knowing words. Without having a knowing of them. It would be like me telling you, taste my cake. Look at how beautiful the cake is.

Jai: Now make one yourself. You should know, you know what cake is you've had a taste of it. Look at the layers, examine it, study it. Look at maybe if you look at my cake more, you'll be able to understand how to make your own cake. And we don't understand the essence of breaking it down to its ingredients and the steps.

Jai: And you can't be intentional about what you're making. If you don't know the steps to get there, I can make a cake. I can make bread. I can make a salad. They're all different ingredients. But I have to know my intent of what I'm aiming for to figure out whether or not, do I want to put lettuce into my cake batter?

Jai: No, that's not a cake. At least not one that people are probably going to enjoy. And oftentimes we do this and we're just like, look, I'm trying to make something here with all of these experiences. of other people. I've tasted that cake. That one's pretty good. I like the look of that one. Oh, that one's coming together.

Jai: Like, yeah, wow, look. Oh, man, that guy's figured it out. 

Jai: He's making multiple cakes and handing them out. He's handing out cupcakes to everybody. It's like, Oh, let me eat the little cupcake. Oh, but now I want more 

Jai: Well, maybe I just have to go to that person. They can just give me their cake.

Jai: Again, I like analogies from things that we relate to. And apparently I really like cake. 

Jai: Um, this is going to haunt me. I already know. So, this experience has been where I look at it now. I don't consider myself. This great teacher of anything there are, I feel like everybody else knows more about scripture than I will ever know. What I find myself fascinated with is breaking ideas and concepts down to their smallest forms. Because then when it's in its smallest form, I can build something new out of it myself. And if I can teach people. How to take those building blocks and what the building blocks are, they can build their own stuff.

Jai: I don't need to tell you how to build a relationship with God. I need to tell you how to choose to have a relationship with God. Because the moment you choose to have a relationship with God, the Holy Spirit is working in you. And that's it. Now you can go to the Doug Batchelor's, the David Asscherick's, the Ira Myers, everybody that you can think of as like the big name ones and you're like, Oh, I see how they're doing.

Jai: They've got a cake made out of this again, cake. I don't know why it's on my mind. They've got their, look, they're putting this decoration on it. Oh, okay. Oh, that's an interesting thing. Oh, you know what? I'm going to take that and I'm going to put it to my stuff. Like now you begin to look at other things.

Jai: And you start to see the ingredients they're using but until you know how to be intentional about what you're making in this case The desire to make your faith because we know that we know what faith is, right? Faith is the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen. What is belief? What is the ingredients? I know faith is substance and evidence, but what is belief? Belief is personal belief is individual belief is made up of your Own experiences, your own. Moments of learning your realizations and no two beliefs are the same. What convicts you may be a mathematical equation that says, Oh, that makes sense. God exists. What convicts me may be a moment where I'm in the shower and God speaks to me. And there is a moment like that. I won't go into that story. That's a whole, we'd be here forever. 

Amelia: So, from the moment you want to commit suicide the first time. And you saw this light. Yeah. It was very rapid. It was very short. 

Jai: How did I know? 

Amelia: Yeah. So what happened? How did you find that this power? 

Jai: Okay. Okay. So we're going to skip ahead. So 14 years later, I'm in a place where I've graduated from Mission College School of Evangelism.

Jai: I got my certificate there. It was like a three month program. 

Jai: And I had started at this point dating the person who would become my wife. 

Jai: And so my life is definitely taken on a change. You could look at my testimony at that point and you can find it on. I testify actually on YouTube. Up to that point, it was like God was doing stuff and I could see him at work. And now I'm trying, I'm definitely being more intentional about it. And I've got a spouse with me. Who's encouraging my walk and we're learning we're making mistakes, but we're learning along the way 

Amelia: So you kind of like close the doors to the darkness or were you able to still hear?

Jai: I closed the door but again It's still a door. 

Amelia: Did they have did they still have power over you? 

Jai: They didn't have the power unless I gave it to them What they would haunt me with was the fact that during my period of time where I was under their influence, There was twice in my life that I tried to commit the unpardonable sin And so they would use that against me by saying you have scars on your soul that most people don't know about and you those scars will never heal until Christ comes to get you. So until then, we are allowed to remind you of everything you've done. 

Jai: It was a lie? 

Jai: Yeah, it's a lie, but I don't know that at the time. And it's hard for me in this point in my life. I would ask some of these. questions of the people who would come and teach at church or we'd have different speakers coming through and I meet these very impassioned and empowered speakers and I ask them these questions and it didn't take long for me to realize that it's like, It was hard for me to find a mentor, a spiritual mentor because most people had a theological understanding of God and , that was what was feeding their faith, but very few had a spiritual understanding of God.

Jai: And so to find somebody who could spiritually guide me through the stuff I had been through most people after, yeah, it was hard because you talk to somebody long enough and you realize somebody might present themselves as they know what's going on. But if you talk to them long enough, you start realizing they don't really know.

Jai: They don't know the level that I think they, that I thought they did. An expert can tell whether another person is an expert in that. Yes. 

Jai: So there was this back and forth where I'm like, I don't know what to do. I'm looking for direction. I'm looking for guidance, and I can't necessarily find it here.

Jai: So at this point, this is probably Five years into my marriage. I ended up going to ASI to represent the business I was working for at the time I was working in IT and it was an Adventist owned business. And he was like, Hey, why don't you go check out ASI and see if it's something we should promote ourselves at maybe we can get some business through there as a, as an Adventist run, IT company, I'm like, okay, sure.

Jai: So I go as a manager for the company and I'm there networking and connecting people. And so I'm there by myself, and I've been to GYC before, I've been to ASI before, but I had never been to the prayer room before, and so this was the, I woke up, I remember waking up one morning because they always go up and on the stage and they announce, all right, you gotta be there, I want to do my best impression, but you know, friends, you got to be there. You need to go and come to the prayer room. Yeah. So I'm there and I'm like, yeah, sure. 6 am, right. I'll be there in spirit. Thanks. So I wake up at 5 45 , unintentionally. That was God. Gem can see that later. Be like, please God, my brother . Um, so I wake up and I'm like. I'm a night owl. Most people in IT are not early risers. I'm a night owl. And so I wake up and I'm like, I've never been to the prayer room. Let's go see. Let's go check it out. Can't hurt. I'm awake anyways. I'll be early to breakfast. Okay. Not, it's not because I wanted the prayer, but I was willing to be willing. And so, 

Jai: Hey God, you woke me up. I'm willing to go. I ain't got no problem going to prayer. Sure. Let's go. So I walk into the prayer room. And they had just started. They're doing the music and stuff. And so I find a little space in kind of the back corner of the room. 

Jai: And it was very small. Like, there was maybe 20 people in there. 

Jai: Not like you've seen at this event. So maybe 20 people, 30 people at max. And so I'm sitting in this small little room. And we're going through the stages of prayer. And he's guiding us in prayer. Through the prayer method. 

Jai: Right? So, praise. Repentance, ask and then yield, I think it's like to give up anything that is left on your heart. We're going through the praises and as we're going through the praises, for lack of a better term, my third eye opens. 

Jai: The room begins to take on that spiritual glow, like I used to see. Now, I had, at one point, when I first started coming to church, I used to use that same principle to see whether or not a speaker was good.

Jai: Oh, this speaker coming on stage, he's got some bright light on him. Or, oh, that speaker doesn't have that bright of a light. That's not going to be a very good sermon. 

Amelia: Oh, you were using that?

Jai: I was using that before this point. 

Amelia: So you still had that power?

Jai: yeah, because that's a technique that you can teach people. So I was using that and then God revealed to me through spirit of prophecy and through Bible studies that he's like, hey, you shouldn't be practicing. So I stopped trying to see it. I trying to like closing myself off mentally. And so when I'm in this prayer room and all of a sudden the room begins to take on a glow, I was like, Nope, no God. No, I'm not doing that anymore. Nope. I'm sorry that I tapped back into that world. Hey, we're done. Ooh. Nope. I'm focusing on you. I'm here to pray. Clearly this is Satan trying to distract me. 

Jai: But it doesn't stop. It doesn't stop. And the room gets brighter and brighter. And at the same time, before I went to the prayer room, the voices were there like, Oh, you're going to prayer. Oh yeah. You don't want to do that. Like antagonizing, it's like just being a nuisance in the back of my mind. 

Jai: So as it's getting brighter and brighter and at a certain point, all of a sudden the voices begin to scream. And I don't mean like a child crying or somebody who's like, ah, it's like, this is blood curdling fear of probably half a dozen people or maybe more screaming at the top of their lungs in my mind.

Jai: And, I looked up at first thinking maybe this was somebody else. No, it's, these are the things I'm hearing and all they start, as they're screaming, they begin to scream, he's here, he's here. And they say that probably three or four times and then they go silent. And at that point, the room just. Takes on this glow that is no longer a glow. It's just a beam of light and I realized it's the same lights that I saw the night of my Plan of my attempts. Yeah, I wasn't even attempted but planned suicide Except now I'm basking in it and it's not a second It's just pouring into the room and it's getting even brighter and as we go into the repentant stage, it gets even brighter and I'm now like And in terror and fear trying to put my head into the lowest part because I don't know what else to do in the presence of this energy of this power that it's like there's nothing else in the universe that comes close to this. Sorry. Um, and I'm, I'm, I'm there and I'm, I'm like, Sorry, I'm going to need a napkin in a minute. I'm there and I'm terrified because I don't know how to, how to act in this presence. And I'm just, all I can think of is like, praise God. 

Jai: Like literally when you read the things where it's like the elders that surround the throne of God, all they do is get up and sing praise to Him. I can literally understand that now because when you're in that presence, all you want to do is praise and glorify it. It is a purity of existence that you didn't know can exist and just being it near it makes you either want to not exist or want to give it all existence and so as I'm there And we're having this moment, I'm just praising God, like this is what I've been looking for this room, whoever this short little Filipino guy is, I need to talk to him afterwards because it's like, there's something here that he knows this is what I've been looking for.

Jai: And as I thought back later, I was like, it's been 14 years since that night, it took basically almost half my life to get to that point to, to find it again. so as we're going through this, all of a sudden the light begins to diminish and I was like, I begin to freak out why, why, why, why, why, why, like, I just got here, what is going on? I've been looking for this for so long and that's still small voice. And this is, this is the difference when the still small voice speaks, it's a level of peace and comfort that nothing else could ever compare to. 

Jai: And, it speaks and he tells me, he's like, what are you doing right now? And I'm like, God, God, we're, we're praying. We're praying. We're trying to connect with you. Why are you leaving? It's like, no, no, no. What are you doing right now? And so I start paying attention and we've moved on to the ask so the prayer we're at asking and I'm like is it because we're asking wrong. Are we Selfishly asking for things that you're leaving you're pulling your spirit back from us No, what are you asking for?

Jai: And I listen to the prayers and people are asking God, I need my sister who doesn't know you, please help her, my brother who's over here, my cousin over here, these people, this ministry over here, it's like, what are we asking? People are asking for stuff. So what do you think I'm going to do? I'm going to go do what you ask. The light is not for you to hold on to. It's for you to channel through, to pass on to those who don't have it. And I started sobbing all over again. Now just on the floor, like is shaking. 

Jai: Like I like the realization of oh, you came here, you built up, And now you're going to do what we're asking in the very minute as we're asking it, you're sending it out and I'm just there and when Daniel says that it's like my breath was taken from me, that's literally how I felt. I was like. I feel powerless and at the same time, I feel more secure and more safe than I have ever felt in my entire life. I could die right now and not care about anything else in the world. And the realization of this is what you asked. 

Jai: You, praised my name, came in, come into my presence with praises.

Jai: You repented, you cleansed yourself of. Your past selves and now you're asking for my presence and my presence, which came down during those steps is now going to fulfill what you're asking for. And when that prayer was over that morning, I didn't even catch Gem. He like walked off with the rest of the group.

Jai: I was like. Sobbing and in shock, like a person who's been through a traumatic event is just sitting there not knowing how to, and everybody else gets up, Oh, happy Sabbath. Oh, okay. Oh, where's breakfast. Okay. Let's go to breakfast. Like it just walked right out. Wow. Nobody stops. Nobody stops.

Jai: Well, some people did. They're like, are you okay? Do you need like time? And I'm just like, I. I, yeah, I don't like, yeah, like in the moment, I didn't even know how to tell people. 

Jai: I mean, how do you tell somebody , yeah, look, I used to commune with spirits. And now there was a spirit in here that. It's bigger and more powerful than anything else I even thought could exist in the spiritual world and it's like yes, you sound crazy.

Jai: Let's pray for you So it took some time for me to process what exactly happened in that moment to be able to relay it later but it was the revelation was the fact that God is at work in and around us all the time and we don't even know he's there. You don't even know his very presence that the one you are claiming to want to be with is standing in front of you.

Jai: Wow type of experience, you're not even aware because if you were. You'd be left, you'd be left in a catatonic state where you're just like, I don't know what else to do. The worst state is that you'd be, you would realize your sin. And I had, and we won't go into that story today, but I had an experience like that.

Jai: Previously, where it's like God had said something to me and I saw myself in my sinful state and all I wanted to do was not exist, but that's a whole nother story. But so that's why I say there's a lot of back and forth in my life coming to God, going away, coming to God, going away. And it was at that point, though, that was the first time in my life from when I had started communing with the spirits that the spirits were gone.

Jai: Wow. Now they came back. But there was a period of time where they were completely gone and it's just this, the realization I was like, Oh, how do I stay in that presence because they can't be in his presence. And so to have that kind of intention with my faith, we talk about being in God's presence.

Jai: But when you say, what does that actually look like? It is to be in a state of realization of who and what God is. And when you have that in your mind, you understand it. You're no longer just somebody standing on the side of the marathon looking at other runners and saying, that's impressive. You're now running your own race.

Jai: And you're doing it with intentionality and the struggles that you see the person feeling next to you, you're feeling too But now you can say let's go. Yes. The finish line is within reach Let's go Yeah, stop standing on the sidelines, let's go because the victory starts the moment we cross that But until then, I can only think of myself as a winner, even though I haven't reached it yet. Because if I enter a race assuming I've lost, why am I getting into it? And then Christ has won already. He already did it. So He already proved the track is there. The path is established. The finish line is there. Those who want it must take the steps and pursue it. But they must do it with intentionality. 

Amelia: Yes, amen. Wow. And so when you were saying that, for a time in the spirit, they stopped talking to you, but then they came back. Do you mean that you open a door for them to come back? Okay. So it's always us opening the door to them. 

Jai: But again, it's the, because I wasn't being intentional in the moments of my life where I stopped being intentional, I became reactive. And when you're reactive, you're more open to their influence. So really the difference the faith walk is intentional faith walk will always surpass reactive. And a lot of people study reactively. I'm struggling with pornography. I should read my Bible more. I'm doing this. I should study that more.

Jai: I'm having a hard time in my relationship. I should be more active in church. It's we try to react. In a way that makes it look like we're being a part of the body of God, but we're not being proactive in why we're doing those things. So many people are like, oh, 

Jai: well, yeah, the message has to go out throughout all the world, but that's the pastor's job.

Jai: And, as a lay person, what can I do? I can donate tithe and help fund other people's projects. 

Jai: But there is nobody in heaven who is passively getting there. Exactly. Yes. You can only get there with intentionality. Yes. So, why not learn to be intentional here even when I mess up?

Jai: Yeah. I can like, and I'm not saying to intentionally sin, but be intentional about the fact that I am sitting, be honest, look, I desire to sin in this moment because of whatever situation, whatever depression, whatever anxieties, whatever things are going on, I desire. The comforts of this world, so we can be honest about what are our selfish desire is. And in doing so learning to be intentional about the fact that it's like I've chosen to sin. Now it is post sin. I can be intentional about repentance. I can be intentional about pursuing God. I can be intentional about the fact that yes, I don't feel Like he hears me, but I believe that he does.

Jai: Yes, and it took probably another eight months From that first experience there at the ASI to come to the realization because at that point I had started Being convicted. Hey, I need to really get this project I've been working on for the better part of seven years and 

Jai: It's my testimony kind of in a game format where we're learning to overcome temptation through mental exercise of using scripture. It's a card battle game of scripture versus temptation. And at the end of the game, whichever side has the most points, either the game, which is the tempter, or us as the players. That's who wins. Because in salvation, you don't partially win. You have to be intentional about winning. And so you have to secure your victory, not a barely scraped by victory. So yeah, that's what resulted out of that. 

Amelia: So the name of this game is? 

Jai: Eden's Conflict. 

Amelia: Eden's Conflict, So it's based on the Great controversy? 

Jai: It's based on the Great Controversy. It's really based on my testimony. The experiences of what it's like, coming out of spiritualism.

Jai: I realized that the spiritualist world is very intentional about what they do. And the Christian world is very reactive, passive and reactive. We react to when something bad happens, but we don't intentionally do stuff to as often to be proactive in building the faith. And if we do, we think that looks like just preaching.

Jai: And the reality is that, that preaching was like one of the things Christ did the least. Yes, sure. 

Jai: It's like It was healing, it was teaching. It was active work. Yes. It was intentional. Yeah. It was intentional. It was intentional influence within a community. Yes. And we don't seek intentional influence of anything. Yes. So, because we look at it as, oh, well, influence is bad. No, no, no. You can have influence in your family. You can have influence in your school. You can have influence in the life of one other person. That's true. But being intentional about what you're influencing them in. If I am focused on leading others to Christ, I cannot focus on seeking my selfish desire. They literally can't occupy my mind at the same time. Because if this is occupying my mind, my effort to lead others to Christ will look like a failure and just fall apart bad. Yes. It'll be bad.

Amelia: That's true. And it's so interesting what you're saying because one of the speaker, he was saying that, the best way for a person to get out from depression, I think was Eric Walsh, is to get into service, serving others. By serving others, you're not focusing on yourself, you get to get your mind in a different, perspective and they really have to be healed so it's powerful.

Jai: Yeah, because depression revolves around the cycle of self Yes, that's why a lot of people who've gone through depression will feel like they're in this endless whirlpool sinking into its center. Yes, and It's because you are the center yourself.

Jai: Yes And the irony is that in spiritualism, it's all about becoming self, self aware, self existent. I mean, in spiritualism, you are God. There is no other alternative. And no matter what path you think you're taking, Oh, I can believe New Age Christianity, that's, yeah, I'm part of the universe, that all of it is God. No, no, no, no. That's all fluff. It's like, when you get to the core teaching of what it believes, You are God, and so what you're saying is either God exists and he is God or I exist and I am God. Because if you think about it, you are the greatest existence from your perspective. You don't know if any of us are real. You will always be the greatest thing to exist. Even if you find somebody who's got a better life than you. Because they're not living your life, you're living your life. And when you allow that thinking to really start taking over, and like really fill your mind, you're like, I must be God. I set my morality.

Jai: And that's what most people are afraid to realize, because it's that's what sin really is. A lot of us look at it like, Oh, well don't break the Sabbath. Don't, don't cheat. Don't lie. Don't steal. All of these things are founded in the, Seeking of self, but when you shift above God, exactly when you shift to others focused, you can't have that.

Jai: I can't be selfish and all and giving at the same time. They literally can't exist together. And that's what, that, that's what heaven is like. That's why Satan and his angels can't exist in the presence of God. Because they're like magnets repelling each other. 

Jai: They do not. Connect on any degree and we have to be intentional about wanting that.

Amelia: Yes. That's wonderful. So what advice can you give to teenagers and to family adventist family christian families? 

Jai: So Advice for the Christian families. So let's back up. Let's say you're a parent, you're a father, mother, sibling, uncle, aunt, whatever it is. You have an influence in the family that you say, Hey, I'm worried about my kids and this is why I don't let them do these things.

Jai: The first principle is that blocking them is only going to go so far and will only work up to a certain age. Yeah. Because once they begin to ask questions for self, you blocking stuff only stirs curiosity. 

Jai: So, what I say is Active responsibility where we take time to sit down and have conversations with the child and we do this in the game actually also, we take time to let them rationalize out their decision making.

Jai: Johnny wants to play video games all afternoon. Johnny, you have schoolwork to do also. That's a social responsibility. You want to become smarter. What will playing video games all afternoon do to you? Can you play video games and do your schoolwork? 

Jai: Yes, yes, I can do it. I can do it. Okay, go ahead. Let's see how tomorrow plays out. Oh yeah, I didn't get my schoolwork done. Alright, what level of responsibility should you pay for not accomplishing your schoolwork? Not saying let them be in charge, but let them rationalize out for themselves why.

Jai: One is a benefit and one is a hindrance. Now if schoolwork is only a burden and there's no benefit to it in their lives, which is a, it's a difficult subject because for me it's like I'm not a big believer in schools. I'm very much of the, I grew up and learned really most of what I've learned is school of YouTube when it comes to like self taught and even now running my own business. Now I'm starting to get mentors and getting all this stuff. But they might not be the best examples. But the point is that it's like you want a level of open conversation. Yes. Where it looks like the whole thing is about teaching them the moral responsibility of what they're doing. The reality is you're teaching them to have open dialogue and conversation so that when the harder subjects in life.

Jai: Mom, I think I might've gotten someone pregnant. I tried drugs with my friends. They're not scared to have those conversations because they have a relationship with you where they've been able to admit their failures without reprisal. Now they're open to correction and direction because why don't you struggle with these things?

Jai: What are you doing that is different? You've got a sense of knowing about you, where you're going and what you're doing. That is more important Yes. Than telling them, you can't watch this. Mm. You, you, you have to do these. Mm-Hmm, , we do this because this is what we do. And say, we don't eat that because we don't do that.

Jai: If you're giving 'em a set of rules to base their faith on. And it's not intentional. It's reactive. Yeah. It's, oh, I don't do that. Because... 

Amelia: It's kinda like forcing them to follow our paths. 

Jai: Yeah. And all it takes is something to derail that thought.

Jai: A divorce, a fight, a conflict, whatever. Mm-Hmm. . Mm-Hmm. that now they're like, you know what? I don't want to have a relationship with you.

Amelia: I see. 

Jai: And now what? Now what influence can you have on their life? Most children aren't going to have that self realization and decision to follow faith until they're much older.

Jai: Yes. But if you've cut off that relationship with them at a younger age where they've stopped caring about your opinion, then that's not going to help them. 

Jai: Um, the second question, what advice for teens? So that's my advice for families, really, and it doesn't matter the role you are in the family.

Jai: You could be an uncle, aunt, grandpa, like father, mother, being a person to which they feel comfortable and confident to have dialogue and conversation is the most. Critical and vital thing, because it's when we have that with God, where we are willing to be open and honest and have dialogue and conversation, that's what begins to change us, that's what begins to transform. And when the adult is having that relationship with God, now you become the conduit that can now have that conversation and relationship with the child. Wonderful. So now the child is having a connection with God through you. Yes. You are a willing, open person. doorway for them to connect with the divine.

Jai: So that's that first part of parental family relationship. The second part is going to be in teenagers. Now you feel as a teenager, look, that's a cool story, bro. But my situation is different. My struggle is different. I did give into my. Sexual desires and I do think I'm gay or I do. I do struggle with this drug or yeah I did do that abusive thing to somebody else and there's this guilt that haunts me But I'm not gonna acknowledge it soon.

Jai: Now. I'm just angry about it. Whatever it is You take those things and you say it's like my story whatever Thing you've been through my story is different from everybody else 

Jai: yes. That's true. It is. It is. We have all a different story. Exactly. And it's, it, but it's, a lot of people look at it and say, Oh, well, that's just a cop out.

Jai: You're just saying that yeah, we're all different, but we're all the same. 

Jai: Right? Like we've all, we're all, we all need the same thing. 

Jai: Like, no, no, no, no, no. You need a very unique result for your story. Yes. But the uniqueness of what you need is only going to be found when you become intentional about wanting it. When you make the decision for yourself that says, I want. To know truth for myself. I don't care what my family believes. I don't care where it takes me. I don't care any of this quick example. 

Jai: I met a guy in basic training that this guy was full blown spiritualist. He was a Druid and he had tattoos all over his body. I don't remember his name. What's a druid? A druid is a male witch basically. Okay. So this guy was, and he was into , to witchcraft and he would go and do exorcisms for bad spirits in different places. And he had all these tattoos all over his body. He's this is my spirit that protects me from this. And this is the spirit that protects me from this. So he had all these symbols that marked him that showed what he was. So, during this time of my life, I had really been coming closer to God and seeking him with more intentionality. And so every night as we were, we ended up meeting up because we were both being shipped out of basic training. I got, medically released for ADHD. And I don't remember what his reason why he was being released, but pretty much everybody in that group was like, they found something medically wrong with you and so they wouldn't let you graduate because otherwise the military would have to give you benefits for it.

Jai: So, we're going through this period and it's a little depressing. Cause you're like, man, I committed to going through this program and now I'm basically being dropped out of. For situations that are out of my control. I didn't know I had this problem. Being homeschooled, I had never gotten diagnosed with ADHD. We're going through this period, and so I'm using this, and this is a kind of a coming to God moment for me. 

Jai: Every night, I would pull out my blanket from my bunk, and I would just kneel there, and I would just focus on, God. Focusing on having a relationship, to Him and prayer doesn't always have to be about me saying something as much as it is me focusing on the ideas and the concept of what God is because eternal life is to know God.

Jai: So the more I study that concept in my mind, the more I'm connecting to know what he is and just allowing myself to meditate on that. Meditation is not a bad thing. Meditation with an empty mind is the problem. 

Amelia: Yes, yes. 

Jai: Self awareness and meditation with intentionality is good. And in fact, we should be doing that when it comes to the scriptures, when it comes to the ideas and understandings of who God is. And then weighing it against the scriptures that we know to be true and right. Here I am, I would practice this every night where I would sit there and I would just focus and I would pray to God and I would try to meditate on who he was and on the words of scripture with intentionality. And this brother starts to notice, me doing this because we're like bunk apart and he would see me and he'd look over and try to go back to sleep and look over and have more than once.

Jai: And so one day we're there and he's can I ask you, what are you doing? 

Jai: Like, what God, or what do you pray to? And I wanted to say it in a way that he would accept. But I couldn't be like, Oh, well, I'm an Adventist and here's the Bible and here's, I don't know enough of that to feel confident to share any of that.

Jai: So I presented it in a way that I felt he would understand. I said, I'm reaching out to truth. What is that truth? Truth itself. I'm crying out to know truth. And I want to focus on that. And it dawned on him because in the new age concept, you, whatever entity you want, 

Jai: You open yourself up to and that thing will come and give you, but the idea of asking truth Hadn't occurred to him. And , after a while, I noticed that. I'm not the only one now to do my evening prayer and we did have some more conversations. I didn't leave it at that. We had some other conversations about what I believed and a little bit of my testimony where I came from and the stuff I was doing.

Jai: I started noticing that now as he's going to bed, he begins to start doing his little rituals. He's bringing out his little icons and he's like doing his ceremonies and stuff because of it. He told me, it was like, what you've got, what you're doing, how do I get some of that? How do I have that kind of connection?

Jai: And I said, ask truth. Cry out to the universe for truth. And truth can't lie to you, which means truth is going to come and tell you. But, be willing to go wherever truth leads. I didn't follow up with him, I don't know where he is. I don't know how he turned out. But I know that he began to be intentional about his faith, even into the gods that he was worshiping.

Jai: But it was an intentionality that sparked his interest to study more and to learn more. 

Amelia: I don't know how the Lord's going to lead you. 

Jai: I don't. I don't know where he's at. I don't know where, how it turned out. And I wasn't a saint at that point either. I still screwed up multiple times after that. There wasn't anything different. But again, it was just like the moment that person who had called me when I was planning my suicide, it's momentary lapses of willingness to be willing that God uses. And when we get to eternity, we're not going to see all of the failures because trust me, there are way more of those. Then there are successes, but it's the moments of success scattered throughout a lifetime that now people can look at and say, that is God. 

Amelia: Wow. Yes. 

Jai: It's not you. Yes. It's God in you. Leading you. Wow. And he wants to do that for every single individual. So for the teenager who's uncertain about what they're doing or where they're going in life, learn to be willing.

Jai: All the time to know truth and to ask yourself, Is this true? Genuinely true? And what is truth? Where do I gauge it? What is my level of measuring scripture? I find is the most complicated, most fascinating, most interesting place to find it. And when you need something that is going to be as unique as your experience, you have to go to a book that is as unique Among books.

Jai: Yes. In the world. 

Amelia: Amen. Amen. Amen. So you're gonna conclude here. Do you have any encouragement and then a word of prayer? So , this game is for family...

Jai: For families, for ages 14 and up, it's two to six players. Okay. And it's designed to be thought provoking. It's designed to help spark conversation around.

Jai: What spiritual warfare looks like in the mind, not only just focusing on ourselves, but also looking because it's team based. So how do I help my friends? How do I help those around me? Because the goal of going to heaven shouldn't be because I want to be there. It should be because I want everybody around me to experience it.

Jai: And it's available, now, on the website, edansconflict.com okay. 

Jai: We have our shipment coming. Our manufacturer is sending everything over right now. So we will be distributing beginning of February. 

Amelia: Okay, wonderful. My birthday, 

Jai: it's a sign. 

Amelia: So you recommend this game for a AY or churches?

Jai: I do. It plays up to six people, but I always say a seventh person can play the role of a. of a teacher or a pastor who pauses the game as things are going on. And again, exercise, let the kids explain their reasoning of what needs to take place. Because again, you're teaching them not only to reason, but to have that dialogue and conversation with you and build that trust.

Amelia: Wonderful. Thank you so much. Some words of encouragement and then can you close with prayer? 

Jai: Yes. Word of encouragement. The greatest secret I ever learned coming out of spiritualism is that Satan's power is limited to the level of belief you put into it. The authority he has over your life is based on how much you believe he has authority. 

Jai: Now, some people might look at that and say, no, no, Spirit of Prophecy says he's a very powerful being. It's like, yes, he is. Very powerful at illusion. Yes. He will make the most, the most real sensations and feelings and things, but he cannot provide the genuine. He will substitute as much as he can for those who want anything but truth.

Jai: But the reality is that when you set your mind to that. You say, I want to know what true love is. I want to know who it is, what it is, where it is, and I'm going to pursue that until I find it. You can't do anything to stop it. So that's the beauty of it. 

Amelia: Amen. Praise the Lord. I'm so thankful for what God has done in your life, how he's leading you in your ministry, reach many other souls. And I'm continue to pray for you and, maybe invite you in our church. 

Jai: Yeah, let me know. 

Amelia: At Weimar as well. 

Jai: Let me know. Oh, you're in Weimar. Okay. 

Amelia: I'm not at Weimar, but I know the principal of the school. 

Jai: Oh, okay. 

Amelia: And I'm going to talk about you. Because you live in California. 

Jai: Yeah, I live in California. in southern California. 

Amelia: Yeah, so all the best for your ministry, lots of blessings, and I will keep in prayer. 

Jai: Praise God, praise God. Well, let's close in prayer then. Yes. Our Father in Heaven, Lord, thank you for the opportunity, the privilege of sharing your name, of speaking you. And about you and to know you, Lord, Father, this is a privilege that nobody else has in the universe the way that humans do. And so, Lord, we ask that we would not take granted, but that we would utilize it, share it, know it with intentionality so that others might see it and say, what is that knowledge, that insight, that purpose, that mission that drives you? And we might turn and say. It is God. It is the divine. It is truth unveiled, unaltered, unhidden from the world for all who are willing to accept and believe it. So Father, help us to take that lesson to heart. Help us to carry it wherever we go. Multiply our efforts tenfold so that we know the results are beyond anything that came from us. You scatter seed.

Jai: And harvest where no seed have been scattered. Yes. Amen. So Father, do the miracles you need to finish the work, not only in our lives, but in the lives of everyone around us. Amen. For all this, we believe we have received in Christ Jesus, holy and most blessed name. Amen. 

Amelia: Amen. Amen. thank you so much. 

Jai: Yeah, thank you..