Eden's Conflict
Eden's Conflict
Healing from Church Hurt - (Guest Speakers Dee & Sarah Casper)
In this riveting episode of Eden's Conflict, host Jai delves into the delicate yet critical subject of healing from church hurt. Joined by his friends Dee and Sarah Casper, as they engage in an open and honest discussion about how misinterpretations and misrepresentations of God within the church can lead to mistreatment and neglect of individuals. They explore how changing our perceptions can help us see Christ in a clearer, more authentic light through their personal insights. This episode is essential listening for anyone seeking to understand or heal from negative church experiences. Share this episode with someone in your circle who might benefit from these heartfelt conversations. Tune in for an episode that promises to not only enlighten but also to offer a path to healing and faith rediscovery.
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I think for me really condensing things down into what does a church, what is your pastor? What is your parents? Whoever's the spiritual influence in your life? What are they. Influencing you to adopt as a belief in the, are those core beliefs that you have in spirituality bringing health to your mind, body and spirit, or are they bringing death?
Callum:You're listening to Eden's Conflict, a podcast dedicated to helping you leverage the words of Scripture and unlock the powers of the Bible so that you might experience a more full and complete walk with God.
Jai:Welcome back everybody. To another edition of Eden's conflict. I'm your host Jai. And today I'm here with two of my friends. Dee and Sarah Casper. newlyweds, but also good friends of mine and my brothers and sisters for the kingdom. Dee it's really good to see you. Hey, good to be here. And Sarah, it's nice to officially meet you.
Sara:Yeah, you
Jai:too. So today we wanted to dive into a really interesting topic. And one that recently came to mind and I think really resonates with me. And hopefully with a lot of you is the idea of hurt within the church, So often, we see pain and suffering and somebody actually made a video about this, where they, as they were searching Google about Christians. One of the first things that came up with, why are Christians so hateful? And so that topic has really resonated with me. And Dee I know you and Sarah, both working on this. This a subject matter. Why don't you go ahead and tell us about yourselves, maybe a little background, how you guys got to where you are and then what you're currently working on right
Dee:now. Yeah. So we we both helped to run a discipleship and evangelism program where we're training. Largely young adults to figure out better reasons for their faith. Why do they believe what they believe? How can they see Jesus at the heart of the Bible message and the true heart of God and who he really is? And then how can they share that with someone else? And so we've worked together, discipling people through that process and. Many times we encounter young people who are seeing a picture of God that is very unhealthy. But the think is that's what he's like. They think that the misrepresentations of people who claim to know God are actually accurate portrayals of who God is. And they're in a difficult space. Should I stay and why should I stay? Or should I just leave all of this altogether? So a big burden we've had in ministry is how to give people better reasons to stay while acknowledging that there are humans doing things that God is not okay with. Who claim to know him and I think. Try to walk. That balance line has been a difficult one but a rewarding one.
Sara:Yeah. And I've started my own coaching business and mental health and spirituality just burst out of my own passion and experience to see. People really have a heart connection with God to disentangle their trauma and pain that they've experienced within the church. Within spirituality or plainly, just a misunderstanding of who God is. I really want to see people flourish in the mental health space in the way that we can truly do that. Is by accurately aligning our minds with what is true about the gospel and God's character.
Jai:I see. So you guys are really on this. This mission together, you both. Approaching this from two separate directions, but have combined forces to, to tackle this idea of church hurt. Head on from two sides of the equation here. What would you say if we were for those listening? And they're like what, I'm not sure what church hurt means or perhaps. They're thinking that maybe in their minds, they have an idea of church hurt, but they're wondering if maybe it's the same subject. How would you define either of you, if you want to go, how would you define church hurt? Some of the common signs or common impact that we see as a result of the people go through this experience?
Dee:I think one of the big ones is just how our theological teachings, what picture of God they create in the human heart and mind. One of the, one of the ways I'll illustrate this is based upon the way in which you're communicating what God is like. What picture's painted in someone else's mind. Is it a smiley face or a frowny face? Is God someone to just be absolutely terrified of? Who's never happy with you. Never content. You'll never be good enough. Or is God someone who loves you, who sees value in you and is working with you. And no matter where you find yourself to bring you to a better place. I think that's from a teaching standpoint, that can be a big culprit when it comes to bad religion of people thinking that God is this monster, this disappointed parent, who's always, not happy with where they are. Or someone who isn't understanding parent. Who recognizes the weakness of humanity and so forth. But also has something better to offer us and is even willing to give us power to live the life that he requires. So that's one of the ways that we try to address that from a philosophical standpoint, but maybe you have some ideas of another way to communicate
Sara:yeah, I think for me too, is just really condensing things down into what does a church, what is your pastor? What is your parents? Whoever's the spiritual influence in your life? What are they. Influencing you to adopt as a belief in the, are those core beliefs that you adopt. In alignment with love. Do they produce healthy behaviors? Do they produce healthy thoughts about yourself and about God and others? Or do they cause affirmations for the anxiety you have or the. Obsessive compulsive disorder that you have, or the perfectionism. Event or trait. Are those core beliefs that you have in spirituality bringing health to your mind, body and spirit, or are they bringing death? And oftentimes in the church, we find that the core beliefs that are set into our minds and hearts by the way that theology has presented is actually causing more harm than good.
Jai:So really to, to a certain degree. You have to have an understanding of a general understanding of where God is coming to humanity. And then if you're understanding or if you misunderstand. That image or projection of God. You're going to reciprocate or produce a distorted image of yourself. And a lot of times it's the people receiving that distorted image though. They're the ones getting hurt by it.
Dee:Would you say for sure? Yeah. And, or we can have systemic issues, right? Where we received a bad picture of God that we just inherited. We never really investigated for our sales, that this is true or not, or needs or realignment. And then we regurgitate it to the next generation of the people around us. So sometimes it can be cyclical or systemic in nature that we didn't even realize, that we. Many times we will communicate to others what was given to us. And so if no one broke that cycle and brought things into alignment with a true picture of God, biblically. Then it continues.
Jai:Who would you say is most responsible for this? Is it. Church leadership that fails to recognize when they're misinterpreting scripture or is it. Tha. The lady and the people within the church, like who would you say takes the cake or the credit of this distorted image? That's being so often projected into the world and causing people to have. A distorted view of God and essentially driving a wedge between them and God making the monitored. To separate themselves from this kind of hurtful vengeful. God. That seeks to their destruction because they are quote. Wicked or evil.
Sara:So I am thinking that each person as an individual holds that responsibility. Just because. God is relational in nature. That's the way he wants to relate to us. And that's the way we should relate to him. And so each of us has a personal dynamic with God and the personable personal responsibility to seek out what is his character like? And is his character trustworthy, has got a safe person. And once we know that he's a safe person and build foundational trust with him, then we can go deeper and discovering who he is. I also believe too, that, people who claim to be Christians do have that responsibility. Of giving an accurate view of who God is. However many Christians tend to fall a pastors or thought leaders, et cetera, and don't do their own diligent work of creating beautiful, deep knowing with God in that relationship. And so they get so many things wrong or they're easily led astray. Or they don't do their own healing work. And so they just end up regurgitating unhelpful information and their own life and to the world. But I think as a core principle, I think each and every one of us has that responsibility. Yeah, that's a
Dee:great answer. I. Jesus says in John 17 three, this is eternal life. That they may know you, the only true God and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. And what's implied to me is that each of us needs to investigate for ourselves and taste and see for ourselves, whether God is who he claims to be at a foundational level. God is love as it says in first, John. 4:18. And so I think that's a big part of. To take a step even further back. I think the real reason for this way of thinking. It goes very back to the very beginning. This is very much in harmony with Eden's conflict, right? That Satan it's alluded to, and as eco 28, Isaiah 14 to. This conflict began in heaven and then eventually moved to planet earth. And Satan has perpetually been trying to convince people. That God is not who you think he is. That if God claims to be love, Then God is anything, but right. And so he continues to speak into the image of God in our minds, negative pictures and keep stoking that flame. We see that in Genesis three. Did God really say you can't eat of any tree using this very negation. Prohibitive language whenever the language God used in Genesis two was of all the trees you made freely eat, except for one, because when you do there's consequences, And so I think the moment we take the bait that God is a monster God's was holding God is against us enough for us. Anything that fuels that type of picture. Originates in Satan. And we as fallen human beings. Can fall prey to that. And so I think our posture towards God by default is one of distrust and it takes engaging with God. And seeing a revelation of who he is to disarm our prejudice, to disarm our distrust and to awaken us to the fact that he's actually the most beautiful being the universe has ever
Sara:known. And the thing is like God really desires to be known that fills the deepest desire of his heart. And as we pursue intimate relationship, our deepest desire of our heart is also filled. And I think it's beautiful because there's this word? That essentially means to know somebody it's Yahdon the Hebrew and ginosko in the Greek. That means you are having an intimate knowing of the person you were engaging with an intellectual knowledge and experiential knowledge. Of that person. And that is something that Dee and I are so passionate about. And the main focus of what I do in coaching at here. Brave is. Actually being able to develop that deep, knowing that relationship with God that yahdon experience with God where you are realizing, yes, God is a safe person. He's not like the abusive pastor that I encounter. God is looking at me and love, and he's not, founding. On my experience, he's hating the sin that exists in the world, but not hating me, the person. And so I think it's so important to. Go through that experience of truly knowing and understanding who God is for yourself. Because if. Other theological things or principles, religious practices, whatever it is come to into your experience, you will know how to navigate those things. You will know. To say, yes, I can affirm this as a truth or no, I cannot get on board with that because it's not in alignment with who I know God to be.
Jai:So having some level of understanding, and this is part of what we try to do with Eden's Conflict. Actually, the part of the concept of why we make a game. Is the fact that in games. They set up the premise of structure. So you have a beginning point and an end point and you have a system on which to get there. And that's actually what drives you? A lot of people ask, like, why is gaming growing at such a rapid rate? Why are young men so driven to gaming? And it's because in a world of endless possibility, a game gives me structure that I can. Focus on and geared towards and feel like I'm succeeding in accomplishing stuff. And it sounds like this principle is oftentimes why so many people feel lost and hurt within the church because they don't understand first off who God is the end goal. They don't understand who they are aware they're coming from. Where does it begin? And then the system that they've been quote. Told or shown is already has a corrupted or misguided interpretation. So they're playing the game. They're going to the wrong goal or they're playing with the limitation of understanding. It's not directing them to the proper way, taking full advantage of all the tools and opportunities that scripture has as allotted to us.
Dee:And so in turn, it just seems like a few tile venture, right? Yeah. If those are the cards I'm being dealt, it just makes sense to leave. And so our gold objective is they'll say what if it's now what you think? What if it's better than you think? What if God is not who you think he is? What is the very God you wish existed does? And it's even better than that. And what if. The Corpus or the structure of Christianity actually is reasonable, biblical, applicable, and enjoyable. And to call people to re-examine for themselves. Then you realize, man, if I leave, I'll be lost, but I hate being here and I'm stuck. Instead of feeling trapped, you could act to find a more enjoyable experience. Because, yeah, I think people weren't done Jai. I think they recognize that if this thing isn't doing anything for me, it's not really working. And God really, isn't a nice person. Why would I stay.
Jai:So on that. We've now laid out. A plan of action in the sense that we see who we're trying to reach. You are specifically those who have had a misguided or misunderstanding have been received, hurt or gone through hurt. From the organization that's supposed to be. A representation of God. Now that we know who we're trying to reach. How do you practically let's say from the perspective of somebody who's been hurt, And I'm listening to this podcast and I'm saying. But you don't know what I've been through. It's oh yeah. Okay. Some people have had abusive parents or other people have had, been mistreated in the church where they weren't allowed to sing upfront and they felt rejected by it. It's but I went through something that nobody ever talks about. And even in the church won't even acknowledge that this thing happened. How does that person practically. Say okay. What would have to be done to rebuild the trust that was destroyed.
Sara:I just want to say first and foremost, I am so sorry. Whatever you want through that. Wasn't okay. And it wasn't a representation of God and his love because abuse or any unhealthy behavior can truly never, ever represent who God truly is because God has loved. And I think it really starts with you acknowledging your story. And beginning that healing journey. And I think also just allowing God to earn your trust, which is like. A really weird concept to a lot of people. And people I've been talking to recently whoa, that's a thing. God can earn my trust. I thought it was just supposed to blatantly trust him. Or blatantly just trust the body of believers because. You're told you know, that God is love or God's people are safe, people, et cetera. Whenever. God totally understands the fact that you are human and you are built with a wiring that is made to understand, like I'm not going to trust somebody straight out the gate. Or I'm in pain or I'm wounded. And I don't want to go back to a place that doesn't feel safe. I just want you to know that God understands that. And if he's the one that created that wiring in your mind and body, then just know that he's okay to earn your trust again.
Dee:Yeah. And I think one of the greatest ways that has been manifest that Jesus has. Jesus has a John 14, that if you've seen me, you've seen the father. And I think that's incredibly important because one of the most beautiful teachings of scripture is that God, the father is just like Jesus. And Jesus's life is reviewable. It's documented. You can look at him, you can see how we talk to people who were outcasts, who didn't toe the line of the religious leaders. And how would Jesus interfaced with them and interacted with them? Was kind compassionate. He didn't affirm where they were. He met them, where they were and provided them love and support to get to where he wanted them to be. And I think that's really important that if you can look at the character of Jesus, if you just study Matthew, mark, Luke and John. And examine the life of Jesus and see how he did life, how we talked, how he taught. How we invested in people. That is one of the ways that trust can be built because everything you're seeing Jesus do. Is exactly what God the father would do if he was walking on earth. In to Jesus. In fulfilling prophecy lived a life filled with suffering. So I'm 22, Isaiah 53, and many other places. There's illusions to the sufferings that Jesus would go through here on earth and scripture tells us he was rejected, abandoned, alone. Neglected. He was violated. Physically he had religious leaders run down his reputation and physically assault him. They falsely accused him. So imagine when you look at the life of Jesus and the whole, what he encountered. You see someone who actually is acquainted with my story, because Jai, you asked the question. You don't understand what I went through. The crazy thing is even if I don't, Jesus does. He literally became one of us. John, one 14 says the word became flesh. Speaking of Jesus, any dwell among us. But he didn't just walk like in a force field or a bubble and not had any form of experience of rejection or difficulty. Jesus himself was deeply harmed and hurt and violated by religious people. Bad religion. Jesus was crucified by the liberals and the conservatives in the church. And so when you say. And we don't, I'm not weaponizing this statement towards someone who would say that you don't understand. My point is when we say that many times, just because we aren't aware of how real Jesus experience was as a human. He experienced being cold and rejected and abandoned and alone. Neglected, he experienced discouragement. He experienced frustration. He experienced abuse at the hands of people in an unjust fashion. And when you realize the God of the universe, Didn't bypass that part of the human experience. To provide a sacrifice for humanity. He willingly entered into it, right? Like he entered the vulnerable womb of a woman. And an unmarried woman at that, right? This is not the type of environment you would think the God of glory would enter this earth. And yet it was. And through this dirty and difficult and treacherous path of life. He dealt with all the hard docks and he did it for people like you. For those who were saying, Hey, John, you don't know what I went through. Sarah, you don't know what I went through a Dee you know what? I went through. Maybe we don't, we've all had our interface and difficulties with bad religion, but if we don't know the specifics of your story, The God of the universe does. And the reason why I believe Jesus chose that path was to earn your trust. To show you that there's someone in the universe who not only is trustworthy. But who cares about what you're going through right now? And I think once you understand that it's a game changer.
Sara:And it is a game changer. Like I can testify to that. And I was so glad you brought that out, Dee, because. Just knowing that Jesus has a story of church hurt too. Made me feel so seen. So understood. And also coming into the knowledge of the fact that. Jesus came to the earth and had the biggest job. Of disentangling, faith and church hurt and bad religion. From the true gospel, what he really meant, spirituality and divine connection to look like he had the biggest job anybody ever will of dealing with church, her disentangling it from. All the mess that are, sinful natures or, people's actions have done. And that made me just come into alignment with his mission of okay, Jesus. You've been so hurt as well. You have the same story of church hurt. You've been hurt by religious leaders, whether they've had a good intentions or not. And I can find my story and your story. And I can come into alignment with the fact that yes, my mission is the same as yours now. I'm coming into alignment with your mission. To disentangle faith, to disentangle love from the constraints of men, from the ideas of man from the pain and the trauma that's been associated with the gospel. And I tell you what I found so much liberation in that so much healing from that. And being able to just reject the lies of, oh, I'm going to have to deal with all of this stuff forever. No, like Jesus conquered that. We're still living with many of the effects of it. But at the end of the day, Jesus came to disentangle and you can see that throughout the whole gospels is Dee recommended to read. There's a bunch of, church hurt spewing out of people's mouth or bad religion spewing out of. Different religious leaders, mouth and Jesus is constantly like, okay, will you say this? But I say this and I really want you to go into the gospels. And lean into what did Jesus say? I
Jai:A couple of things come to mind here first. The verse in second Corinthians chapter three, you says But we all with unveiled faces beholding as in a mirror, the glory of the Lord are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory. Just. As by the spirit of the Lord. And so this is where the importance right. Of spending time studying scripture. And if you say it's okay, so where do I begin? All right. I've been through some hurt. But the nobody knows my experience. If you're having that kind of story. Then you should be the person who is seeking Christ because. Two things are happening here. One. As long as I allow myself to have this reason. My experience is so different from everybody else. Nobody knows what I'm going through. One Satan is trying to use that as a barrier. It's like as long as he can get you to believe that you are separate and different and nobody else can help you. Then you are left in a helpless state.
Dee:That's first Corinthians 10, I think right. Were no temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man.
Jai:Yeah. So that first part we got to learn to accept the fact that it's okay. Yeah, sure. Maybe my experience is unique and different. But that doesn't mean that there isn't a plan to help me. And if your experience is so unique and so different, that there is nobody else in this world who can reach you. Then all the more reason why you should study Christ because he has had a life more unique and more different than anybody else ever.
Sara:Find your story and his story.
Jai:Yeah. It's that should be the thing that's if my story is so broken, so different, so unique that I need to find something that is equally as broken or change, or as powerful as unique on its own. And it's and that's the reason why we need Christ in our lives for that reason. So if anything, that's a great starting point is to say that it's I'm hurt. I'm broken. It's what should I do? Starts things start studying just Christ. Yeah. If you're going to ignore the rest of the Bible. Just look at the four gospels Matthew, mark, Luke and John. And just look at how Christ. Talked acted and responded to everything, how loving he was and the amount of hurt. He goes through from the leaders of the church, from his own family, from his closest friends who literally live with him on the road for three, three and a half years, who abandoned him at the very end. It's like you want somebody who's got a unique experience of hurt Christ is that story. And as we start to see that as we start to resonate with that, and we see that in those moments, he looked to something higher than any of us have. And that is the father. It's like now that gives us a direction. Now this is sending us up. We're restructuring the plan and saying, okay, where do I go from here? Yeah, you always have to look up.
Dee:For you. Yeah. Like the person who feels isolated alone, no one understands Jesus did this for you. For you specifically. So that you don't have to feel alone anymore.
Sara:I love that. I think another important element to all of this is getting very familiar with what safe looks like. Because a lot of us have been hurt or abused in many ways in church or spiritual settings. And we understand what, unhealthy looks like, just because of the fact that it makes us not feel good. So that's pretty easy to draw conclusions about. But we don't really know what safe looks like. Do you know what the opposite of the hurt you experienced? Looks and that for me was a huge game changer in my experience, in my healing journey. I had to go to therapy. I had to talk to mentors. I had to have hard conversations with people who hurt me. I had a dig deep. And own my own experience in my own role in what happened in my story. But me being able to get to know what safe, look like, and being able to associate that with a loving character of God. Went a long ways for me.
Jai:I can definitely resonate with that side of things. I had a. I had a similar experience on my own. I'm hurt at a very young age. And. It distorted my view. And the same thing. It's like I had to go through those same steps of learning. To one confront the person who hurt me and even in that confrontation. At first, they were sorry. And then after that they were angry. Wow. The fact that they had been confronted by the thing they had done, that they admitted to doing. But it's put it in their minds. They're like, oh, but that was when we were younger. You can't hold me accountable for that. And I'm like, I'm not, I'm saying I'm forgiving. You. It's so why are you so angry? Like, why are you still if I'm not accusing you here, I'm saying I forgive you for this thing. And it's but you're being angered by the fact that I brought it up.
Sara:often people don't want to take responsibility for that. And sometimes it's too painful for a person to admit that they've done something to hurt another person that the safest place is denial. The safest place is not going to act out of anger because this is so frustrating. I can't process my emotions. And so I think it's so important to know how to communicate well, how to, handle a conflict resolution, how to use reflective, listening, all of these safe practices that create safe environments for communication. And sometimes it's not going to go well and maybe you're not called to do that confrontation either. There's also, elements of, maybe it's not safe for you to go back into those environments. But are you familiar? Are you getting to know through your healing journey? What safety looks like, what true love looks like. What intimate communion and security looks like. Because if you don't know what that is, you will always be with that chip on your shoulder of I was hurt and I know what hurt looks like. And I'm then you end up being miserable forever because you never experienced the complete opposite of the pain that you went through. And that's why I'm so passionate about connecting people with Jesus, because. Before in my experience, I didn't feel like it was safe to share who God was, because if the characteristics that I knew who or a new God to be were placed in a human being, I would identify that person as an abusive person. So I had to come to that point of like, all right, I need to go on this healing journey of understanding what safety, what love looks like. And be able to trust that God is that person. And God earned my trust and show me yes. That he is that person. And now that's why I'm so passionate about sharing Jesus with people, because I feel like I can be a matchmaker for Jesus because Jesus is a safest person that I know the most loving companion that I could have ever had. And somebody who identifies with my story and my pain and can bring me healing as a result. So I want to encourage you. Don't just experience the pain and the sin that's in the world. You have the opportunity in Christ Jesus to experience vast love grace mercy. Peace. All the fruits of the spirit, you have the opportunity to experience the opposite of your pain.
Jai:Looking at that. If somebody is saying, okay, I accept that. Christ. Has experienced that he wants to share with me. And it's. You just to heal the broken hearted,
Sara:this is mission statement.
Dee:This is why I
Jai:came to heal the broken hearted to relieve the burdens of those who are trapped. We're here to just encouraging people is essentially that don't let your hurt. Become first become your armor, but then become your prison. Because I personally have been in that path where it's I allowed my anger to be the thing that justified why I was angry. But also the thing that kept me up at night. In such pain. Wow. Yeah. And that kind of experience. I think what you brought out here. The idea of a journey. Journey takes place. When you make the decision to take a step forward. Nobody can force you to go on a journey. That's kidnapping. Like you can't be kidnapped into a relationship with Christ. Yes. You have to have a desire and a purpose. For those who are wondering, they're saying, okay, this is really great, but I don't have the desire. If anything, I have a repulsion too. The church. What would you say to somebody that's like that? Sure. Maybe what you're saying is true. But I've already passed that point of having an interest in even looking back. Yeah,
Dee:I think. God is in the business of making all things new. He's in the business of restoration and reconciliation. If. If people. Are capable of going too far for God to make a positive change. We're all in trouble. And I think of solid Tarsus, right? Saul of Tarsus who became the apostle. Paul was the epitome of bad religion, right? Throwing brothers in jail, killed them, folk like voting for their deaths. And he genuinely thought he was doing God's service. The only thing that could change him was a face-to-face encounter with Jesus Christ. Yep. Nope. Nobody in the early church could persuade that man. He was rolling. Only Jesus Christ himself. And so if you feel that you're in one of those unique situations that like. To hardened in my current position, whether it be against the church or something else. I think. Just saying, look, if you are who you claim to be. Then it's going to take a road to Damascus experience. For me to be able to come into alignment with you. And I think he would love to have that invitation. And that challenge. And just say, if you're going to have to move. If you can move. If faith can move mountains, I need you to move a mountain out of my heart to even be open, to have this next conversation you're inviting me to have. And I think that what I love about Jesus is he's that approachable. Yeah. And so you can be honest. I don't want to talk to you. I don't want to go back in that building. I don't want to go back with those people. He can handle all of that. He's not intimidated by your objections. You're not intimidated by your pain or your strong emotions. Psalm 1 0 9. Is David venting strong, heavy emotions, right? Kill my enemy, make his wife a widow. Make his children fatherless, right? Knock the teeth out of his mouth. And we're not saying this is how someone should live, but when we have those strong emotions, The safest place to bring them as God. That's the lesson we can learn from Psalm 1 0 9. Not to take action on those violent thoughts. But to bring those violent thoughts to the only place in the universe where it's safe to bring them straight into God's presence. And I think that's what you should do and give him if he's giving you an invitation, give him an invitation and response. If you're really who you claim to be, and you can do these things. You're gonna have to change my heart first. Even be willing to take the next steps. And
Jai:I think you'll do it. The analogy that comes to mind is if you think you have a emotional ammo, That is ready to unload them. The best I can say is tardy God. Target God and unload on him. Every deep seated emotion that, that you feel you are justified, or perhaps unjustified in whatever it is. But target him. And see what happens. Be open. Be willing. But what I say when I first started praying and confessing to God, it was like, God, Your I give you permission to do whatever you have to do. To convict someone like me. And not even someone like me to convict me because my level of belief in my own experience of the things I've been through, the things I've seen, the things I've done, it's going to take something above and beyond. What. Just reading is going to show me. It's I need a personal experience, but I give you permission to give me that personal experience that convicts me. To the point where I'm like, okay now I'm ready to learn more. And yeah, make that step on my own. Even to make
Dee:me willing to have that experience. If you're not even there, you can tell them that. Maybe willing to even go there. Yeah.
Sara:Yeah. I think what Joe said was so beautiful. And I just want to affirm that with my own story of having to just come to terms with the fact that I had no idea. What love really was because spirituality didn't teach it to me or religion. Didn't teach it to me. And the abusive God that I believed in was like my abusive ex who also, wasn't love at all. And so I had to come to this face to face encounter with God telling him. I'm humbling myself before you. Because I believe there's a God of love out there. And if there's a God of love out there, you need to reveal to me who you are and what you're like, because I don't have the capacity to do that anymore. I am so over it. I'm so over trying to figure out what you are or what love is. You need to reveal yourself to me. And the cool thing is that God loves opportunities like that. And if you want a wild ride of like crazy light bulb moments, if you want a ride of holy spirit, just flooding you with love and peace and realizations and healing and growth, just invite him, like Dee said. Just give him the opportunity to show up for you. Yeah.
Dee:And there's the resources that can be helpful in this journey because some people may say what are my
Jai:next steps that was about to ask that what are some practical things that people can do to say, okay, where can I learn about these concepts we're talking about?
Dee:Sure. So when it comes to the kind of understanding what safe looks like, there's a great book by doctors, cloud and Townsend called safe people. And it's an excellent resource that walks through what an unsafe person looks like, what the traits and characteristics are. And then it also covers how to be a safe person yourself. So it's not just about all those people out there. It's also calling for introspection. Am I a safe person or how do I become a safe person? So I really love the comprehensive approach and it's a Christian resource. So it's nice that it comes from a biblical background and a mental health background together. That's a great resource. Sarah has started a coaching business and a resourcing outlet called Hey, your
Sara:brave. Yeah, come join the community. We're on Instagram and or you can find resources or coach with me personally, a stand dot store for slash hey your. Brave. So
Dee:that's another way where you going to have an outlet. To figure out what are my tools and my next steps. We also have put together a series a, you can find it on YouTube. If you just type my name, Dee Casper, D E E C A S P E R. And then it's called a God worth knowing. And there's a series on my YouTube channel. Playlists there that walked through re-examining the God that we thought we knew. And just seeing if there really is a God worth knowing. So there's also a kind of a spiritual resource there to call us to maybe re-examine the reasons for our faith and maybe retune our compass to true north. The resources that could potentially help.
Jai:I love that because it's like, As you come to this understanding of who God is and your mind begins to paint this new picture of God. So often we're fighting against this image, the distorted image, and we give God the credit of this is who you are. And he's that's not me at all. And so it's so having these resources and having the these outlets and even taking the steps to say okay, God, I want to see, I give you permission to show me your true self. Those are such great opportunities. And the fact that we have the God of the Bible that saying, yeah, give me that opportunity and watch your life change in ways you can't even imagine exactly. Yes. I think you guys both so much for coming on to today's episode. This is like I said, the end of the year, beginning 20, 24, we were starting a new year, starting a new series. Coming together. Once again, and you guys have already plugged in it a little bit about your resources, YouTube channel and Instagram handles and accounts. So those will also be linked in this episode, under the bio. For anybody who was looking for it and saying, where's it, where can I find this? I didn't quite catch it. Just look under the link of the podcast description and you'll find the descriptions and links there. I guess in, in closing, I just want to say thank you so much. Is there any final thoughts or anything you wanted to conclude with here?
Sara:I would say, just in a world where. We feel so alone and unsafe. I just want people to know that. You can create a secure attachment with God. You can have that safe space with him. And he longs and desires to connect deeply with you and to prove himself trustworthy. And I just pray that your spirituality will grow that. Your mental state will be in the healthiest place and that your heart can just vibrate with beautiful love. That's poured into your heart. And I just pray that your. Church hurt or any pain that's been caused you, that you will be able to find your story in Jesus, his story, and find healing and strength to carry on.
Dee:Yeah, I just read Isaiah 61 and see Jesus as mission statement. And if any of that resonates with you, you're broken hearted. You're captive. You don't believe you can be accepted. What he came to do is to provide those very solutions in himself. And no matter how mad we are, what's happened, how we viewed him. He's not intimidated by that those circumstances at all. Who've used them as a wonderful place of opportunity to bring beauty for ashes. And we will have joy for mourning. And to proclaim the example where you're the Lord in your life.
Jai:It was both beautiful, sentiments and thoughts to, to close this out with. And so in closing, as we wrap things up here, just remember, do listeners no matter where you find yourself or. Whether you're starting your journey during the middle of your journey, or perhaps you have left your journey and gone a different direction altogether. God has not changed. God has not abandoned you. And just because there are many people within the body here on earth. With a distorted outlook of who God is. That doesn't mean that God is that thing. And then he wants to chill and share. The true image of who he is with you, if only you would receive and accept him. And so for that, we're going to go ahead and end here today. Take care. God bless. And remember, dear listeners, the words of scripture are yours to claim. If only you would believe them. D and Sarah, thank you so much. If we're coming on to today's episode. It's been a blessing.
Sara:Thank you.